TRANSCRIPT: [Putin at] Meeting of the Valdai International Discussion Club (partial transcript continued)

(Kremlin.ru – Novgorod Region, September 19, 2013)

SVETLANA MIRONYUK: Thank you.

Mr President, Mr Rühe wants to respond.

Mr Rühe, please go ahead.

VOLKER RÜHE: President Putin, I go along with you, what you said on Iraq. And we were as critical; the French were, also. It was not a NATO ­ it was an American decision.

But Libya was different. And I would like to remind you that in the first decade of this century, the United Nations created a new development in international law called Responsibility to Protect.

What does this mean? Every state has a responsibility to protect its own population. And if it doesn’t do this, then there’s a right of the international community to intervene, once there’s a decision in the Security Council.

Russia abstained and made it possible to have this attack. And I would just like to say, I’m very grateful to the French forces who saved the lives of thousands of people in Benghazi. This was not to create democracy and it will take a long time and will always be different from us. But how many people can you kill in your own country by saying, “This doesn’t concern the outside community”? The international law says this is no longer possible.

And coming to Syria, it’s a different case. There is no international basis for intervention. But when you remember how it started, and we had a very interesting debate last night, it was in Daraa in the south that young people demonstrated like we do in the streets, like young Russians do in the streets. And they were shot.

And later on, we all see the pictures of a president sending out his air force to kill people who are queuing to buy a piece of bread. I can tell you, a president who kills people with his air force who want to buy a piece of bread, he has no future. He has no future. And this is nothing we just can look at. We have to come to an agreement what to do, and I’m very much grateful for what has been established between you and the United States. It’s very precious. And I hope it will lead to results and it will help both of you. It’s a win-win situation for all of us.

But we must also understand that in the world of today, you cannot just go at states that attack other states. That was the case in the 20th century. But what do you do with states that don’t protect their own population? You don’t have the right just to intervene, but on the basis of the UN decision, this makes sense. Because everybody, every president of every country, also has a responsibility to protect his own people.

That’s my position.

VLADIMIR PUTIN: I fully agree that the use of force is possible only through a decision by the UN Security Council. Otherwise, of course, I completely concur.

SVETLANA MIRONYUK: Dimitri Simes. We promised a degree of debate, and here we have it.

DIMITRI SIMES: Responsibility to protect is a very good principle. I know that in the West, we follow it to the letter. For example, I heard that Germany broke off diplomatic relations with Egypt when they killed one thousand mostly peaceful demonstrators supporting their lawfully elected president. I’m joking of course; Germany did not break off relations. The United States did not impose any sanctions, and did not even stop supplying arms. And I must say honestly, I have no problem with this, because I am a political realist: that’s how the world works.

Indeed, I think it would be a mistake for the United States to let Egypt fend for itself. But we must be honest with ourselves. I will never forget when I read about 1862, that France and England, particularly France, were giving Alexander II lectures regarding so-called Russian soldiers in Poland. At the same time, England and France were colonising Africa, using the most brutal methods imaginable.

VLADIMIR PUTIN: Yes, let’s take a swing at the Europeans, with their double standards…

DIMITRI SIMES: This double standard exists. And I must tell you honestly, as President Putin’s friend and admirer Henry Kissinger says, it’s a well-known double standard in international relations when you differentiate between friends and adversaries; this double standard is normal, but you must know when to stop.

VLADIMIR PUTIN: Yes, it is too bad that Henry is not here. He would add some very interesting insight to the discussion. You know, I say this sincerely, because there are people in the world who, in spite of patriotism and international interests, have learned to say what they think. He is one of them.

I think the President of Israel is like that as well; he states his position freely. I mean, he is the acting President, he certainly has limitations, but in personal discussions, he is very open, and I am sometimes amazed by how free he is with his words. And Kissinger ­ he is not even in government service and can speak sincerely.

SVETLANA MIRONYUK: Mr President, we have about ten to fifteen more minutes for questions.

VLADIMIR PUTIN: Mr Ryzhkov, you have the floor.

MEMBER OF THE VALDAI DISCUSSION CLUB VLADIMIR RYZHKOV: Mr President, I have also been a member of this club for ten years and can confirm that this is a first-rate platform, with no censorship, with open discussions and the hardest-hitting questions. I think this 10th Valdai meeting is, in my view, the most incisive and interesting. We have been working productively for ten hours every day.

If you will allow, I would like to return to domestic policy, because we already spent a lot of time discussing foreign policy. Especially since, as you know, we have been working here for three days, and I think that Russian domestic policy is currently of enormous interest. This is because we see a kind of incredible societal awakening over the last several years; I think you see it as well. In some places, it is happening very intensely, and in other places, less so, but society is awakening very actively.

It is hard to disagree with what you said, that a strong nation cannot be built without dialogue, without taking into account all opinions, through violence, force and coercion. This is equally true of Syria, Russia and Libya.

If you allow, I want to ask you some fairly topical questions about something that troubles me personally, which I know to be troubling to other people present here and an enormous number of people throughout the nation.

The first of these questions has to do with the events of May 6, 2012. There was a demonstration in Moscow, which, unfortunately for all of us, ended with a few clashes between some of the demonstrators and the law enforcement agencies. Currently, the so-called Bolotnaya Case is underway; if I’m not mistaken, 28 people are on trial. Some of them, about twelve of them, have already been under investigation, under arrest, for eighteen months. One of them wasn’t even able to say goodbye to his mother, who died. Today, another defendant’s grandmother died; we don’t know whether he will be able to go to her funeral. I know for a fact that for a large part of society, the Bolotnaya Case ­ the criminal case against participants in the demonstration ­ evokes strong emotions and serious tensions.

Mr President, I have studied this issue very carefully and looked into our Criminal Code. It says that mass disturbances are defined as involving explosives, arms, health risks, property damage and large-scale unmotivated violence. Fortunately for us, there were no explosives, no arms, no large-scale violence or health risks on May 6; there were individual confrontations. But the charges are very severe. And I’m afraid that if it comes to severe, stiff sentences, this will become an issue that creates a lot of tension within the society. So perhaps ­ I understand that the judicial authorities are working independently ­ it would be good to consider amnesty for participants in these events, to mollify the enormous anxiety on the part of many citizens?

And my second concern, Mr President. We spent two days discussing the September 8 elections. We had a very intense discussion, by the way, there were participants from two of the most noteworthy campaigns: Sergei Sobyanin spoke for the Moscow campaign, and Yevgeny Roizman spoke for Yekaterinburg. Many regions saw truly bright, passionate, competitive electoral campaigns. But unfortunately, Mr President, a dozen regions ­ and maybe more ­ once again saw large-scale falsifications. The observers say this, the experts say this, and the people living in those regions say this. What does this lead to?

Society is awakening; society wants to participate in running the government, it wants to participate in the elections, and it wants to have legitimate power, but certain individuals in the regions are used to throwing in extra ballots, rewriting them and falsifying them. This leads to apathy, it leads to disappointment, and it ultimately leads to undermining trust in the government ­ a government that both those in power and those in the opposition wish to see succeed.

So perhaps, Mr President, it could be worthwhile to consider some sort of additional steps, taking into account that a year from now, there will be many more electoral campaigns, in order to guarantee fair, open, competitive elections ­ not just in the major cities where elections were competitive, but throughout the nation overall? This would release an enormous amount of tension that exists in many regions and I am sure that an entire generation of bright, talented, proactive, patriotically-minded politicians would enter the political arena.

Thank you very much.

VLADIMIR PUTIN: Thank you.

As for the so-called Bolotnaya Case [in 2011, for which 12 people are facing trial], I don’t want to make any juridical pronouncements as to whether a form of riot took place there or not. I don’t doubt your competences as a lawyer, but all the same it is the investigative and judicial authorities that must take such decisions.

What is it I want to say in this regard? Whatever happens we must not forget the lessons recent history has taught us and our neighbours. We remember the London riots that took place just recently, three years ago, when cars were overturned. Thanks to the CCTV cameras that are everywhere in London, the police and British intelligence services spent a year looking for all the participants in the riots. They found almost every one, and all were convicted. And I think that the English did the right thing, because no one should entertain the illusion that such behaviour is permissible.

I don’t know whether there were signs of riots [in Bolotnaya Square] or not. Let’s leave that to the law enforcement and judicial authorities. I do not want to intervene in this debate. But there’s one thing I can say, and I would like to once again publicly articulate my position regarding this kind of situation. If people behave and express themselves in a way that violates other citizens’ rights and interests, and break the law, then the state must react accordingly.

You cannot call for beatings or bodily injuries of the police, try to gouge out eyes, call for hitting people on the head, or rip off their epaulettes. And do you know what outcome this would have in any country, and in Russia in particular? Such acts must be repressed in accordance with applicable law. This should be clear to everyone. And there is no need to blackmail authorities with the fact that they will be labelled undemocratic. The authorities must respond accordingly.

Can we consider granting amnesty in this case? I do not exclude it. But we have to deal with this case in an extremely responsible way. I do not exclude it. We need to give [the authorities] the opportunity to see all necessary legal procedures through to their logical conclusion.

About whether or not the elections were dishonest. I don’t know, there probably was some fraud. You drew our attention to and mentioned the elections in Yekaterinburg. Here I think a candidate [Yevgeny Roizman] ran for, spoke at and won the mayoral elections. A non-aligned person, a representative of the so-called non-systemic opposition. And he went out and won.

In Moscow, our largest city, elections were free and fair, and people even expected that the mayor [Sergei Sobyanin] would win in the first round. But they expected he would win by a large margin. Actually, his main rival [Alexei Navalny] had almost half as many votes. This also speaks to the level of support among Muscovites. But I cannot say that elections in Moscow were fraudulent. I think that both you and your colleagues were probably present at polling stations. I can’t even imagine what else we could do to make them more transparent. If you have any suggestions or ideas, let’s discuss them, and we will integrate them into existing legislation. Do such negative phenomena occur in some Russian regions? I would not exclude it. I would urge you to join with the authorities and law enforcement agencies to detect such infringements and take corresponding measures.

Finally, in answer to your question, I would like to express my hope that your assumptions are correct. I would also very much like ­ and I think about this every day ­ smart, patriotic young people to enter Russian politics, people with a clear vision and understanding of what needs to be done for the good of their country, for their Motherland. I myself truly want this and will contribute in every way possible to making it happen, including through informal channels.

You yourself have been in politics a long time now. You were a [State Duma] deputy, and you know it is possible to use a protest mood to achieve electoral success. But this does not directly translate into the positive, effective development of a given region, municipality or the entire country. We need really qualified people, competent, effective managers with a clear understanding and vision of how the country will develop.

To be continued